Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to the Skullcast. My name is Asher Whitmer. I'm here, as always, with my brother, Christopher Whitmer. And we took a week off. For the 10 or 20 of you that listen regularly, you probably noticed we took a week off because Christopher and Kimberly had a newborn baby.
For our YouTube audience, Christopher is currently holding their. What is she.
Is she. She's. She's not even two weeks old yet.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: No.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: Like a week.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: Less than a week.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Less than a week.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: No, wait, today.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Less than a week. She's already on her first podcast. So a week today, A week on Wednesday.
Yeah, that's right, you guys. Very good. So we. We conveniently did not have to debrief. This wasn't planned. Although it was an easy pick.
Are we gonna try to somehow schedule this in or are we gonna debrief the worst Vikings game of the Kevin o' Connell era?
I don't know.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Was it maybe of my lifetime?
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's true. They were shut out. They were almost shut out by the Raiders a couple years ago. That was pathetic.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: But Max Brosmer, this is a mutual shutting out.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: The raid. The Raiders game, you're saying? Yeah, yeah. Thankfully, Nick Mullen's got just enough yards to get a field goal, and the Vikings won that one back in 23. But it was an awful, awful game.
And, yeah, maybe we'll talk about that a little bit. But what do you know? They turn around and shut out the Washington Commanders. And if you think in terms of the last time we were recording a. An episode together, Christopher, The Vikings actually have a plus 5 point differential, so I guess we can be positive instead of negative, huh?
[00:02:04] Speaker A: That's right. That's right.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: This season has been so full of ups and downs. Christopher. Even the last time we recorded, Christopher was ready to fire everybody, but he went even further than that after the shutout.
And so I felt like I had to be kind of the positive voice among us, kind of balancing out. Like, remember, we're in development mode. You know, all this. The game against the Commanders. Maybe we'll start there and then we can just kind of look back at the. The Seahawks game. I just kind of blocked that opponent from our memory.
We. We can look back at the Seahawks game kind of as we debrief the Commanders game. Yeah, Too. But the game against the Commanders was the best McCarthy game of his short career and one of the most well balanced called games of the Kevin o' Connell era. Perhaps at all. But definitely for this season. They shut out the. The Commanders. Interestingly. Enough, I actually thought the defense played better against the Seahawks. The defense was all over Sam Darnold and I think if anybody, if any opponent is watching this, that Vikings Seahawks game, once again there is a blueprint out of how to shut Sam Darnold down. The problem is, yes, the Seahawks have a good defense, but Max Brosmer is not the guy obviously.
And the Vikings offense, period just was not good at all. There's definitely play calling, things we could criticize as well with, with a young backup qb.
But all that to say I, I thought the defense has had two of their best weeks here. Yeah, in, in the, of the season. Obviously the Seahawks, they were playing a playoff caliber team. The Commanders are playing one of the worst teams. So I still think it's a positive. The, the thing that I always look for is the Falcons are a classic example. They beat the, they beat the, the sexy teams, they beat the, the good teams and then they get smoked or lose to the teams they should be able to beat. And, and as a result, I don't think they're going to the playoffs. Now the Buccaneers are doing their best to make this close, but.
Excuse me, actually the Panthers. Do the Panthers have the division right now?
Um, I think so. The Panthers might take the division. But all that to say ev. Like there's lots of chatter and stuff about. Yeah, but this was against the worst team in the league or whatever. In a developmental year with a young qb, even without a young qb, you celebrate when you hand it to teams that you should be able to hand it to. The Vikings should be able to smother the Commanders, at least this version of the Commanders.
And so I think it's an overall win, success, progress with how they played against the Commanders. Even though yes, the Commanders are a bad team, they also look like they gave up. I, I didn't get to watch the game so I'm just kind of going off of people who did watch the game or, or just some of the replays and stuff that I've heard. But I, I'm sitting here off the Commander's game feeling positive. How are you feeling?
[00:05:18] Speaker A: I feel, I feel pretty positive about where the Vikings are at.
I think it's, it's the, the asterisk to I feel positive is that my expectations for the season have drastically adjusted and so, and so there's this sort of like five week arc where every week my expectations have had to be reevaluated and so there's the sort of grief of what this season could have been.
Yeah, I think has been frustrating and, like, disappointing.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: If they had figured this out after the Falcons game.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: What could this have been like? Yeah.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Or even. Even after.
Yeah, after the Falcons game or even after the. You know, his. What. What was he gone for 5 weeks? 6 weeks?
[00:06:12] Speaker B: 6.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: After the Chargers game? Coming into the Eagles game. Wait, no.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: The Eagles were before the Chargers were before.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Coming into the Lions game, which, I mean, to be fair, he. He played well or like, the team played well against the Lions.
Yeah. I don't know.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: It.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: The talking about the Chargers game, it's amazing how, like, coming away from the Chargers game, we're all like, this is. This is terrible. You know, this is the worst game.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: In o' Connell's era.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: And there was definitely feelings of, like, it couldn't get. It couldn't get worse than that because it felt like the team was just lethargic. I do think it's a.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Hold our beer.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. The.
I think that there is this sense of, like, I was pretty frustrated.
Frustrated after the Seahawks game, frustrated after the. Frustrated after the packers game, and then frustrated after the Seahawks game. I think because the team had really pumped up both McCarthy and Brosmer, and in neither of those, essentially rookies were ready to play, for sure. Brosman. Let me just stick with Brosmer. Like, Brosmer was not ready to play. He was undrafted free agent. I think all of the calls Kevin o' Connell made with Wentz essentially dying in the Chargers game, someone was like. I think it was Brosmer or someone was, like, played worse than Wentz in the Chargers game, and Wentz died in that game.
And so what was I saying about that? Oh, I think. I think I have a lot of questions around. Why. Why there's this disconnect between what the coaches saw in practice and in camp versus actually playing in. In a real game. Why there was a disconnect. And I would like to see the Vikings address some of that somewhere in their evaluation of, like, camp versus real games. But some of the things I was upset at o' Connell about, it felt like we're addressed in this game. Like, you're saying the commander's game.
Yeah, the commander's game. Yes, both the.
The. Some of the things, like, with Running. Running on short play, like, three in one. I think there were. There were three or four third and third and shorts. And I think they ran on all or most of them, and they were successful.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: And not only that, but the Mason touchdown, which ended up, like. I think that was a third and one.
And he ended up getting Eight yards for the touchdowns.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
That's super impressive to me. I think, you know, if you listen to the guys at Purple Daily and whatever, which I don't know.
[00:09:11] Speaker B: They.
Well, we'll circle back to them. I want to bring something out there.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: But they, you know, Phil, you know, in his hottest take, thinks that Kevin o' Connell has given up on jj. Or had. I think maybe last week's hot take was that.
Or somewhere. Somewhere in the last week, he had a hot take where it kind of feels like Judd. Kevin o', Connell.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Judd's hot. Take this this week, was that they're going to move on from him.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe that's what it. Maybe that's what it was, which is.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: What I want to circle back to. But, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: So there's a. There's a part of me that's like, okay, is Kevin o' Connell just like, all right, fine, you know, we'll run this until I can get a real quarterback. Or is he still committed to JJ's development?
And I think we both have questions of, like, a couple of the things that I wanted to address was like, can he change? Can he make this game simpler for. Because JJ's clearly getting overwhelmed. Can he. Can he make it simpler for him? And let's use this running game that we have, this running game. To me, he's made some arguments in some of his, where he talks, like, Paul Allen and whatnot about that.
Some of the games where we've complained about them not running as much, I think what they see on the field is that, like, they're not getting the looks that they're looking for on some of those run plays. And to us, we look at the stats and we're like, well, Mason ran for, like, five yards or whatever, so, you know, why not keep up with it? I don't. I don't. I don't. Maybe they're seeing something that we're not in, and so maybe he's justified in that. But, yeah, seeing a simpler. A simpler offense, which he's been doing for a couple of weeks now, I think JJ finally just had a defense he could. He could kind of get it together against.
But then the other big thing that I was very curious about was, has Kevin o' Connell lost the locker room?
And couple of things that I think about. I think of Jeff Jefferson's leadership. He clearly hasn't lost Jefferson. Either that or Jefferson is just incredibly professional. Like. Like, either. Either Jefferson still believes in o', Connell or he doesn't believe in o'. Connell. And he's still like putting his, his, his words and his weight and his leadership behind Kevin o', Connell, which is incredibly impressive to me either way. But then you see his locker room speech was probably one of my, one of definitely my favorite locker room speech of the year. I just found it really interesting watching those dynamics because essentially the season is lost from a fan perspective. The season is done.
And then after, after all of that, there was an interview I don't know if you saw with Harrison smith who's like 14 year vet or whatever it is.
And he was talking about, and he got emotional, talking about Koc, just challenging them to think of what would your 16 year old self, your high school self think of you now you're in the NFL. Would he be proud of how you played?
And it certainly resonated for a guy like Harrison Smith who's like emotional, loves the game and probably his last year, which is like a bummer of a last year. But.
But to me, that just the way he responded, the way Harrison Smith was responding to me, that, that was kind of everything for me was seeing. It's like, all right, it seems like o' Connell still has the locker room. I still have a lot of questions around their development, their coaching, like why?
Like, yeah, some people want to say that like Luke Brown from Lockdown Vikings wants to say that J.J. mcCarthy was being overcoached.
Matthew Caller wasn't responding to Luke but was responding to that idea. And he just, he doesn't buy it.
And then what Kevin O' Connell was telling Paul Allen, it sounds like JJ McCarthy was just doing too much. He's like, oh, I played with this guy at Michigan and I think he's going to do this. And like, and Kevin o' Connell was just saying, slow down, all you need to worry about is yourself and make the right play. Which there's a part of me that's like, there's been a few times where Kevin O' Connell has kind of separated himself from JJ McCarthy in that way where it's like JJ's doing this and I'm the coach and I'm telling him to do the right thing or whatever. That's kind of like, I don't like, in some ways it's interesting to see the behind the scenes and maybe he's built that trust and rapport with jj. On the other hand, it's like that could feel kind of, you know, bad to the player. But anyways, that's my rambling thoughts. Yeah, I have a, I have a lot of questions But I feel mostly encouraged.
Um, and obviously, I mean, yeah, shutting out an NFL team is not hard, is not easy to do.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Um, easy? Yeah. As, as someone said, bad teams don't shut out other bad teams. Like, if, if you're mutually bad teams, it's going to be a, an ugly 9 to 11 game or some, some like really weird number or, or this bit. Like, if you, if you're both bad defenses, then you might have 30 plus points and you look like a soaring offense. And so that's the, that's the win, that's the celebrate. They did exactly what you would, should expect.
Was it, was it something to be impressive about and be like, oh, JJ's the guy. Oh, JJ's gonna go on? No, absolutely not. Like, he, he was playing against a bad defense. But when you sit down and you take a test, and it may be a really simple test, it's, it's a placement test. Where are you at? Can you do these basic. Answer these basic math questions and you ace the test. People don't be like, oh, we're, we're going to give you a C plus. Because it was a really simple test. It was really easy. JJ McCarthy just aced a really simple test. If he had played bad, if he had a turnover against this commander's team, where are we at? Like, if, if o', Connell, you can't do some basic play calling that, that wins you a game. If, if the defense plays like that for a second, maybe third straight week. The defense has been very good lately compared to kind of how I, I felt like the season started with a soft defense and now they've, they've come alive. Dallas Turner has come alive. He's obviously, Grinard's been injured and stuff, but he's not quite the same as he was before.
Van Ginkel had his, his iconic interception, almost returned it for a touchdown. When, when the defense is playing like that, can you, as a play caller and can you as an offensive personnel group, put together a good enough game against a really bad team to win? And not, not only were they able to do that, they smothered him. They, they shut him out. And so that is, There is zero reason to be sitting here exasperated by the, the game against the commanders with you. There's, there's lots of questions. Obviously, seasonal expectations and stuff totally readjusted. We were, we were wrong on, on multiple levels. But one of the biggest things that I maintain is this team has not been the Ferrari that everybody said it was going to be for J.J. mcCarthy. And so yes, J.J. mcCarthy has had a lot of growing pains. I think there's even just a level of character maturity that J.J. mcCarthy is needed to go through. I, I, I sort of wonder if some of that separation that you feel a little bit is, is maybe ok.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: I've, I've been trying to determine, is o' Connell arrogant like everybody's kind of concluding he is, or is he trying to navigate several dynamics? And one might be a, a young buck who's always won and who's, who's got a level of confidence that has far overextended his current ability. So if, is he trying to reign in for McCarthy's own personal development or is O', Connell, has he shifted off of McCarthy? He's not that big of a fan of him.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Whatever.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: I don't know.
I thought about that in the locker room or the locker room speech, post game speech that O' Connell gave. Two things stood out to me. McCarthy was much more subdued and yeah, I, I thought O' Connell still expressed the belief, and he did this in Sam all year, last year as well, even though I don't think there was a chance, a real meaningful chance that they were going to do whatever they could to get Sam back.
But I thought O' Connell expressed his confidence and his belief in McCarthy. Again, all that to say this was a superb test. They aced it. Was it an easy test? Yeah, but they aced the test. And bad teams don't shut out other bad teams. I'm not saying this is a good team. It is a team that should, should be better than five and eight right now. But I, I think even with McCarthy, like, even with how the quarterback has played out, if Addison didn't have the Naylor hands that, that Josh Naylor had last year, Addison has dropped so many passes this year.
Even Jefferson, he's, he's felt a little lackadaisical at times. The defense at different times was soft. That's one of the things that I look back at that Eagles game. It's like, yeah, on one hand, if Wentz had, if you had a better quarterback, you probably would have won that game. But also the defense felt kind of soft in that game. And if they, if, if the team that showed up against the Seahawks had showed up against the Eagles defensively, even Carson Wentz could have won that game. So there's, there's just a lot of different pieces that I look at and, and point to as being the reason The Vikings are 5 and 8 right now, which is why I think Kevin OConnell's exhortation to the team was really good, was what they needed to hear. I don't know what went on with Adam Thielen. He asked to be released. He goes out and has kind of thrown the Vikings under the bus in the process.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: So excited to, to regain his love for the game with all of one catch for, for four yards.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, and. And he had his own level of drops.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: As a Viking.
Um, so, yeah, I just. I, I think I was encouraged too. Yes. McCarthy plays a clean game. Kevin O' Connell had some great play calls, but then also, like the Harrison Smith interview, as well as Justin Jefferson, some sideline antics, but also on field antics. I don't know if you saw that. That long pass to. To. I think that was like a third and eight or third and nine. And McCarthy throws for 21 yards to Jordan Addison.
And Justin Jefferson is wide open right underneath. It would have also been a first down. But you catch in the bottom portion of the screen. When Jefferson sees the pass, he looks back at McCarthy and he's just like clapping and excited at, at.
At the. I don't know, the. The play and the choice and the fact that he made that throw. Um, like, there's a lot. Yes, I think, I think both might be true, that Jefferson is a true professional. But also, I don't. I'm not convinced that the locker room is as frayed as the narrative wants it to be. They want there to be a lot of conflict around there. And I don't know why, but even Ryan Kelly, different Times was like coming back after a play and like jumping on McCarthy excited about how the play turned out. That's a guy who's this injured maybe, maybe in the last games of his career as well.
And the thing getting injured trying to defend or trying to protect this qb who up until now has not been. That could be frustrating to try to protect. But. Yeah, I, I just think. I, I don't think the dynamics are quite as frayed.
It's been a really rough season, and that's going to come with stress. My wife and I go through rough seasons in our marriage and we snap at each other, get frustrated. That doesn't mean we're like, wanting traded out.
I just compared an NFL team to a marriage.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: There it is.
The, the. The thing, the thing about McCarthy, and obviously this isn't everything. Like, this won't win you a Super bowl, but people seem to like him.
Like, Like, I think. I think jets likes him. I think his Teammates.
Excuse me. I think his teammates like him.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: There's.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: I saw a rumor somewhere that maybe him and Darnold weren't super close, but.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I also saw that that was kind of the same time when a bunch of different narratives trying to get the locker, like, narratives trying to frame the locker room is like, really frayed.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: And I. I think. I think the coaches like him. Like, I think Koc even. Even in some of his, like, weird comments, like, even talking about nine. Like, I think. I think.
I think Koc kind of. Kind of likes him even though, like, I'm. I'm sure he's been frustrated at him or like, wondered, like, why. Like, you know, why can't you graphs this? Like, like, no doubt. I mean, he's a NFL head coach. Like, but. But it seems like everybody around him likes McCarthy and that's not. That's not for nothing. Like, like, he. Between.
If. If. If teammates are rooting, genuinely just rooting for it, and if they've seen those. We've seen flashes, they've seen even more flashes.
Um, and so if. If they're seeing flashes of what he could be, combined with the fact that they just kind of like him, that. That could go a long ways in. In his like, confidence in. In not just his, like, his, like, over.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: He's.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: McCarthy strikes me as like.
Like the straight A student who.
Who's a little bit of a teacher's pet. Like. Like he always gets A's and he's always like, if. If I were to guess if any over coaching happened, it was probably upon his invitation. Like. Like, he's probably inviting coaching and like, he's thinking about all these things and he's like, what do you think about this? What I've been around people like that where it's the. The drive is almost more.
They're almost invited.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: The ambition is greater than.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Yeah, they're almost doing too much. Like, McCarthy kind of strikes me as that kind of a guy, which is likable, but also there's. There's also a certain degree of like, hey, you know, you don't always have to ask the question. Like, you.
You know, I don't know. I'm just this super speculative and surmising and stuff. But I think that if. Yeah, I think that that could go a long ways in like vets. Certainly vets. Minds who are like, hey, this guy's. This guy's putting in the work. You know, he's. He's likable.
He doesn't strike me as one of those quarterbacks who people kind of are bristly about.
And then also when he got his game ball, you could hear his teammates kind of shouting nine. So even though we think it's kind of dumb, and I would be super happy if like publicly he doesn't talk about that again.
I think his team is kind of like it in one day when he's really good and he's in his bag, we're all going to love it.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's the kind of thing that, you know, after that Chicago game and you have that like really mean stare look, it's like, oh, it revs you up. It makes you excited. Everybody, even Purple Daily is like all over it. Well then after a 67 yard game and three interceptions or whatever, then, okay, let's put this.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: And I think that that's appropriate. Like, I think, I think it was a little premature. Like Jets. Jets. Started talking about jets versus Justin like three or four years into his career.
[00:25:47] Speaker B: Interesting. I wasn't sure when that, how that came.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: I mean Jetta's. Jetta's jets was, was a thing and like his social handles and stuff.
Um, but it wasn't like a public thing until receiver, when he was on the Netflix receiver show where he kind of talked about. He's like, when I get on the field, I'm jets. And I'm like, I'm confident. I'm wearing the jewelry when I'm off, when I'm, you know, at home eating my candy. Because he loves candy. I'm Justin. And when I, When I heard, when I heard McCarthy say nine, I was like, oh, this is like a younger brother who loves jets and knows about Jettas. And he's like, I'm nine. You know, I was like, I kind of rolled my eyes at the time.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: But the nine thing goes back to Michigan.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: It might, yeah, it might predate that. It just struck me as I always, I always.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's interesting to hear.
Excuse me. I always heard it associated to some of the mental, mental health stuff that he went through early in his college career and when he started learning meditation and so forth.
So I, Yeah, I just. And, and this kid.
Maybe we can morph into the whole thing on whether or not KO is on or off of jj.
Like there were, there were decisions. There's. There's the one scramble play where JJ runs. I think he gets about 16 yards. He gets the first down the pocket sort of collapsed. But he really did have time to hit Justin over the top. And. Yeah, and it would have been taken for the House.
I don't know if you saw that replay at all or not, but like there's, there's definitely some decision making there. Where even in a commander's blowout, it's.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Like, ah, that, that.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: That's your first read. You should have seen that. And he should have. Right, right at the time that he decides to bail the pocket. Actually it was slightly. I mean I was going frame by frame. It was a couple frames before he bails. Jefferson does a J, a jig and loses like, creates separation. And right as Jefferson is stepping back into the cause he gets the, he gets the cornerback to go out towards the foul, the, the end zone or the sideline and he should have thrown the ball and, and that's probably one of those plays where you, where you call it an anticipation throw. I'm never sure like what they mean by that. Layering the ball. Anticipation. It's like. Well, every throw is anticipatory.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: I think, I think it's, it's. But it's like, like comm. Like knowing being in sync with your receiver enough to like throw where they are. Not yet. Versus, versus like more like laterally across the field versus just like I'm going to hit him in his stride.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
Anyways, there's, there's those examples where we can see, you know, if Matthew Stafford was playing in that game, it's probably like 50, 60 to nothing or something. Like it's a.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: It feels like obviously that feels like an experience thing. Like, like even Darnold. Even though Darnold hadn't played well his six years, training camps, film room, like to. To think, oh, I have the best receiver in the world open. I'm gonna throw it. And then I also have like that ability. I mean obviously Darnold had an incredible arm and I think by all accounts McCarthy does too. I think it's more power than like ability to get it down the field.
[00:29:36] Speaker B: Yeah, he's still learning how to air it, air it out.
I always think of that when I played high school baseball I had a really good arm, but when they moved me to the outfield, like the way you throw from the outfield, your release points and everything are different. It feels, it feels like you're skying it even though you're. You're throwing a hard throw.
And what it does is you get more air under it and you can.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Get it where you want it, you.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Know, into the infield or at home grounding opposed to if you throw hard like a shortstop, which is where I was had been coming from then you bounce it. It's the infield. And so I'm guessing it's that kind of. That sort of thing. He's needing to learn a different release point in order to get it downfield farther.
I guess. My. My question is, is so Judd with Purple Daily floats this idea that this hot take that.
That the Vikings have already made a decision, they're moving off. And so Kevin o' Connell simplifying it.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: They say he's.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Kevin oconnell's always got this pain looked when he talks about simplifying the offense. And.
And they're going to be moving on to some other qb. There's several things about that that I'm like, am I just. I don't know. You tell me.
I think that I find that a very lazy take. And he was putting it as a hot take. So he's trying to be hot. But first of all, even them Purple Daily, everybody's been talking about how you have to give the evidence of all these guys. Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Daniel Jones, even Bryce Young.
Some. Some of these other guys, you have to give them time to develop. Seven games, eight games is not time to develop. That's not like, this is nothing new. There's no phenomenal approach to QB development if after a full season of 17 games. But McCarthy's not even going to get that. He'll be good to get 11 games in if. If the Vikings move off of him that fast. There's a part of me that trusts Kevin OConnell enough where I'm like, okay, if they've seen. But I would be really disappointed because there's nothing new. You're. You're just doing same old thing. The NFL has done the same old thing. The other piece to it is it fundamentally goes against every. Every sort of philosophy we've heard from Kevin OConnell. Like, is he really off of JJ already? Because you're once again bailing on him. You know, is very much overlaps with what I just said. But this whole thing of franchises fail QBs before QBs fail franchises, like, to me, it seems like once again you are conceding we as a franchise have failed this qb. We failed drafting him. We failed developing him.
So, yeah, there's just. I'm. I'm not convinced Kevin o' Connell has that philosophy. And then the third thing is. And this, this is where. I don't know where Kevin OConnell's at. But elite coaches do not find guys for their systems. They change the system for the guy that they Have. We've seen that with Andy Reid and the coaches that or the QBs he's played with. We've seen that with Harbaugh in a Sense with Sean McNally. He's not had as many QBs. Harbaugh, we've seen that with San Francisco guy. What's his name?
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: Kyle Shanahan.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: There's a lot of talk about how the systems and there is a certain system, but when you look at how Shanahan or Andy Reid is kind of the classic example. When you look at how they. Or even Jalen hurts. Jalen Hurts is a classic example. He's had a lot of different coordinators, but the coordinators that tailored the system to his style of play, that's when they go to the Super Bowl. The coordinators who try to force Jalen Hurts into a style of play, they're. They're not doing very well. The. The Eagles have one of the most predictable offenses right now because every time Jalen Hurts goes in shotgun, they're. They're passing and he's not a very good passer. Just strictly of passer of the game. When he goes under center, they're handing it off to Saquon Barkley. If you look back to how they played last year, he was under center almost all the time or a vast majority of the time. And they did a lot more play action where you didn't know if he was handing it off or Dr. Dropping back for a pass which made his passing game more effective. And then obviously Saquon Barkley was a lot better last year as well. But elite coaches and coordinators tailor the system to the qb. And my hope would be that the commander's game showed Kevin O' Connell and the coaching staff the type of system McCarthy needs and that the coaching staff is able to then start tailoring it to McCarthy.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Should that have happened after the Falcons game? I. I sort of wish so. I sort of wish they would have pulled him out earlier in the Falcon Falcons game, whatever. But everything aside to me that's going to be disappointing if they're. If they're just moving on and they're going to try to find a guy that the talk of going hard to try to bring Matthew Stafford in, like that's just the same old Viking stuff. We bring in some old almost done quarterback to try to take us to the glory land once. I'm not that interested in it. Am I crazy or no?
[00:34:50] Speaker A: What? Yeah, I think. I think it would be crazy. Like so. I mean, we did this with Aaron Rodgers. I mean, some people could. Would say where it's like, no, we'll turn you down. And it's like, that's crazy. But Aaron Rodgers isn't playing near at the level the last like four years hasn't played near at the level that Stafford is. So like, in some ways, if Stafford came to you and said, hey, I want to play the same way that Aaron Rodgers did this past year, maybe a little bit crazy to turn that down and be like, hey kid, you're gonna sit your second year because we got Stafford, like, that would be crazy to like dismember the franchise to go get them would. Would be crazy in my mind. And so I know. I don't, I don't think you're crazy.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: Yeah. To.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: I was really disappointed by that take. Like, obviously it was a hot take and my mouth dropped open when Judd suggested that just like Phil and Declan were like, this is the hot take. Is that because he had like a.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: Two parter that they're going after Stafford?
[00:35:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I, that would, that would mean. That would be so short sighted. And I, and I get it.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Like, I would also lose. Like, I would. If, if Kevin o' Connell just goes and tries to get the guy that he won a Super bowl with, I would be like, okay, Kevin o' Connell is not a QB developer.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: Yeah, he might be a good QB coach.
I think the, the development, like, yeah, I think, I think there is a difference between developing a young QB versus unlocking Darnold and Cousins.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
Guys you've seen play at an NFL level that you realize, like, oh, there's a few things they could do differently or the scheme could be different and it would unlock their skill set. Yeah.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: There was a couple of things that you had said that I was going to respond to. Yeah, I really hate that take. I hate the idea of. I don't, I don't want to go for another vet, even if he's Matthew Stafford.
I mean, unless, unless, like somehow we could trade for like Joe Burrow or something or.
But, but even, even, even there, you know, you would have to give up too much. So like there's, there's just no scenario in which I would be happy going for another vet. I want to develop somebody.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: And.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:09] Speaker A: And I think J.J. mcCarthy deserves a shot. I think the big question with comparing him to. And I've, I've done this and I agree with the take comparing him, like, like, if you move off of McCarthy after three years, you're just, you know, look at Browns, Browns fans Looking at Mayfield, jets, jets and Carolina fans. Looking at Mayfield for Carolina and Darnold for Jetson, Carolina.
Um, yeah, you know, all of these, you know, Giants and Daniel Jones, et cetera, et cetera. The difference is, are we willing, like those were all. Those all showed themselves to be at the level that they are after six years? Are we willing to wait six years or is the ownership willing to wait six years? Is, is the fan base willing to wait six years? And then even, even then it's like you've been here for five years. It's like, it's like that thing of like you kind of have to just go somewhere new just because the pot has been poisoned. Like, like we're just not like each other anymore. You've been here too long, you haven't shown anything. You go somewhere new. It's like that same person can show more potential just because it's like it grew stale. Yeah, I think, I think that's my biggest question is like, is McCarthy, can. Can O' Connell and his staff unlock McCarthy within the next like two years or year?
Kind of Josh Allen style? Or, or is it going to be more of a six year Mayfield? Mayfield's not a perfect example because I think the Browns organization was just awful and I think Mayfield showed enough flashes. Like, I think Mayfield could have been a Josh Allen if he had been in the Bills organization. And maybe that's the argument for all of them because they were all at trash organizations. I mean, the Browns, Carolina and Jets are historically three of the. Of the worst organizations in the. Three of, you know, half a dozen worst organizations in the NFL. So maybe the argument is for all of them, if they would have had good coaching, they could have been unlocked quicker than five or six years. Yeah.
[00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I, I mean, sorry, as a fan, sorry.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Daniel Jones had that in Brian Dable. Brian Dable was the one who unlocked Josh Allen.
So.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Although I think everything, like, even the way Daniel Jones has publicly talked about the QB room of Minnesota being like, huge. I think to me that says Day Ball might not be the QB developer that a lot of. Yeah, I, as a fan, I'm not out on McCarthy. I'm not out on O'. Connell. I'm not even necessarily out on Kwesi, although he's.
I'm more indifferent to that.
I'm. I'm very much out on this idea that we should somehow tank and get a lot of high draft picks. I'd rather. Because that's not what elite teams do. That's not what teams that are Going to the super bowl back and back, back to back are doing. They're, they're not taking to get high draft picks. They're learning how to draft well with the picks they have. Yes. And they're wise with their high draft picks. They're being wise with their free agent signings. If, if the Vikings had done well this season, Quy would be looked back at. Just like we said when it all happened as one of the best off season gurus of everything, it didn't turn out well. That's not unless there was data on the, the regression of Jonathan Allen and Javon Hargrave. Although they've both been playing better here as of late, including was it Hargrave that came up with that, that fumble recovery?
Yeah, the, all of that to say I'm not out on this yet. I think we need patience. We had said coming into the season the window was open. The window's just opening. I, I feel like any expectation of a deep playoff run this year was too high. Should we have expected a playoff win? I thought it was reasonable to do that now, but maybe that was even premature. May, maybe we need to tailor it back and be like the, the jaden Daniels and C.J. strout rookie seasons are anomalies. It's not very common.
Um, I, I, I still think there's a chance that that Chicago game in week one was a foreshadowing of McCarthy McCarthy season where it's, it's an awful season and, and it ends really well. I don't, I'm not saying they're going to go to the playoffs and anything but, but just that McCarthy begins to start putting it together and having, and we look at like, oh, this is something that can be developed. There's a big part of me that's like, that's probably wishful thinking. I don't know. I, but I just, I think I, I do want, I want Kevin O' Connell and I want JJ McCarthy to do really well together. I want them to this the adversity that they've faced both from without as well as from within and learning their own kind of weaknesses and limitations and adjusting things like that can deepen not only a QB and his coach, but even just the whole roster. And I, that's the one thing that I've always kind of leaned on because I saw it in JJ's attitude and Persona. And then Tom Brady, Tom Brady himself called it out. Now, I don't know if it's because Tom Brady's a Michigan guy or not, but like, McCarthy's not the most skilled of his draft class, but he's a very hard worker and he's constantly trying to get better. And I. And that's the piece. You look at some of these other guys, even, even guys like Michael Pennix or J. Jane Daniels, I think is a hard worker. Drake may as well seem to be good, but where is Caleb Williams at on that thing? I don't know. In some ways it feels like Caleb Williams somewhat kind of relies on his skill. That is he a hard worker? I think Ben Johnson demands a lot of him, so he probably is becoming a hard worker. But that's, that's the one thing that I look at at McCarthy is like, I don't think we give up on this yet. Like, let's see what he can do. Yes. Can you lay aside your alter ego and get to work and actually execute and actually grow and get better? We'll see. We'll see about that. But I'm not ready to be like, we're going to do whatever we can to try to get to a Super bowl next year. This is, I want to see something sustainable where, where we're developing a team and a franchise and we, we think in such a scarcity mindset where it's like JJ's or Jefferson just has a few more years on his contract. Addison's going to be gone all this. There will be other talented wide receivers showing up. There will be other talented running backs showing up, developing the play caller, the guy who gets the snap. I think it's worth the weight, the up and down, the, the frustration. And Mc. McCarthy may never be the Jonathan Allen, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, like putting up 350 yards and four touchdowns and all like, he may never be that guy, but can he be the kind of quarterback that wills and leads his team to wins? And can Kevin o' Connell and the coaching staff be the kind of coaching staff that develop a system where he and the rest of the team thrive and succeed in battle against really hard opponents?
[00:44:42] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: That's kind of what I'm looking at.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: I don't know if this is a perfect comparison, but would you rather be a Giants fan with Eli Manning or. Because Eli Manning is probably still better than McCarthy, but would you rather be a Giants Giants fan with Eli Manning?
[00:45:07] Speaker B: Garthy's clearly more mobile than Eli, but yeah, you're right.
[00:45:10] Speaker A: And win two Super Bowls.
Two Super Bowls against the greatest of all time. Or an or Colts fan playing against Peyton Manning who only got one Super Bowl. I mean, they went to two, but.
Or a Josh Allen, Bills fan. And Josh Allen, who thus far hasn't gone to any Super Bowls, you know.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: Versus a Jalen Hurts, who has won a Super bowl against the greatest quarterback.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: Of generation, potentially of all time.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: This generation. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Like, like, it's. It's interesting because it's like, people talk about, well, Payton has, you know, went to four Super Bowls, et cetera, et cetera. He won two.
But those are for two different franchises. You don't, you don't typically like my.
I will root for Justin Jefferson wherever he goes.
I hope it's always for the Vikings. But my fandom isn't following Justin Jefferson. My fandom is sticking with the Vikings.
And in the same way, like, my, My fandom didn't follow Sam Darnold or whatever. Like, like, I, I want. I would rather have the Giants Eli Manning situation or the Eagles Jalen Hurts situation over the Josh Allen, like, currently.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: And something that gets lost. Yeah, something that gets lost in the whole Eli Manning story is they actually had losing seasons in between the super bowl wins.
[00:46:41] Speaker A: That's interesting.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Same. Same quarterback, too. Same franchise, same coach. But there were seasons where they, like, they weren't the dominant force within their division every time. And I don't know, you know, there's part of me that's like, man, I would. I would just love to have that really good super bowl run. But so I can kind of understand that we just want a Super bowl before we die mantra. But I do think that mantra has led to some really irrational double takes this year on where the Vikings are clearly not trying to just get one Super Bowl. The way they've developed this franchise with Kevin o', Connell, the.
All of Kevin oconnell's messaging, in my opinion, has. Championship mindset has been obvious that they're. They're trying to grow a culture and a franchise that isn't just getting that one super bowl before you all die. But, yeah, to a place where there could be multiple runs at a Super Bowl. And that's what I would rather see. Now I realize you're right. The Bills have. That's been their mind mindset as well. Even Baltimore with. With Lamar Jackson and they haven't like, even Joe Burrow, who's been in and out with injuries, has better than any of them, ironically.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: Like, like. So on one hand I am saying, like, I would rather have a Super bowl with. With mediocre players than.
Than like, greatness and no Super Bowl.
The flip side of that is Also that, like, you have these teams who are in the playoffs every single year, and they're constantly complaining about not getting to the super bowl, and it's like, hey, like, I think. I think as fans, we're. As sports fans, we are just too, Too picky, too nitpicky. We got to remember, if you're. If you're in.
If you're. If you have a chance at a Super bowl, you should be grateful, especially if you have a chance year after year.
I think. I think Steelers fans are justified in kind of being like, all right, like, getting to the playoffs is not enough. We need to get over the hump. I think. I think Bill's fans. I would be getting pretty close to Bill's fans of, like, give this guy a team. Like, but I. But I also think they have.
He also just. Him and Lamar also just happened to play during the. The era of what will probably end up being the greatest great. Like, like the chief's dynasty. This chief's dynasty is probably the. One of the greatest dynasties of all time.
Yeah, even.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: And I don't think. Even though their season is done, I don't. I don't think they're done as a dynasty.
[00:49:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I wouldn't. I mean, it's kind of like Joe Burrow said, our window is open. You know, our super bowl window is open as long as I play for the Bengals. Like, Like, I think Mahomes is the dynasty. Mahomes and Reed. Mahomes and Reed are the dynasty. Obviously, Reed's getting.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Getting older, but they may be transitioning because Brady himself went through a couple different past catchers.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Yeah, they.
[00:49:52] Speaker B: Gronk was one of his last ones, whereas for Mahomes, Travis Kelce has been one of his big ones to begin with. They may be transitioning off of Kelsey. Like, Kelsey is not near the player he used to be, although he is.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Playing better than he did last year, I think.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: Which isn't saying much because he didn't play well last year.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: Okay, well, we're going to wrap up our week 15 episodes here. We'll quickly pick two for one. Spent most of our time expressing hope and once again appealing that we stay the course and not. Not take the hot take route, the flashy route of dramatic conclusions. The story is very much in the middle of being written. Chapter one in week 13. So we did not do any picks in week 14, but in week 13, I finally gained some ground on Christopher. Gained three games. Now I'm just two games behind him.
[00:50:45] Speaker A: See if I can close out separate.
[00:50:48] Speaker B: On the Falcons vs. Buccaneers, we're separate on the Ravens vs. Bengals, we're separate on the Bills vs. Patriots. I'm going to try to.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: That was the way they're playing. I feel like I'm taking the risk choosing the Bills. I think. I just think both of those teams are.
It feels like a split to me.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
I almost went with the Bills too. And then when I saw you went with the Bills, I'm like, that feels like a game I could possibly gain some ground on you.
And so I took Patriots. Patriots are playing better right now, but they're divisional. The Bills are going to have a chip on their shoulder because the Patriots beat them in their house. The Texans, I think, are a team to watch. I. I don't think they're done. I don't let CJ Stroud into the playoffs. He wins playoff games. We'll see how deep they can go. But they have a historical defense right now and so I think that could be really dangerous come playoff games.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: Is he healthy?
[00:51:48] Speaker B: I. Stroud. Well, I don't. I don't know if he's perfectly healthy, but I think he's starting.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: What was his injury?
[00:51:54] Speaker B: I don't. Has he had like an injury? I don't know.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: David Mills was playing for a while.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: Well, wasn't he in.
[00:51:59] Speaker A: Oh, was it concussion, some concussion protocol.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: A little bit or.
[00:52:05] Speaker A: Not a big deal.
[00:52:06] Speaker B: I looked that up. Yeah. Was dealing with a concussion. Missed several games in November, but he's cleared it. Yeah.
We're also different on the Chiefs. Chargers. I think the Chiefs are probably going to be fairly frustrated. They're at home and the Chargers are coming off short game. I don't know. But I do have the Chargers going to super bowl, so maybe they'll.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: I have the Bucks go to the Super.
[00:52:28] Speaker B: I have the Browns.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: That did not age well.
[00:52:32] Speaker B: All is not lost yet. I have the Browns beating the Bears. Part of that is, is if the Browns beat the Bears, I think the Bears may end up losing out and ending like 9 and it'll be very gratifying. We'll see the Bears. I'm also somewhat of a Shadir Sanders fan. Yeah, I kind of want him.
[00:52:50] Speaker A: I'm kind of. I'm kind of getting. I'm kind of getting behind it. Some of some of his antics did turn me off a little bit, which is kind of. I'm kind of two faced about that because I kind of like Dion. I like his moxie. And then I was just like, I don't Know what Shador is doing. And now I'm kind of like.
I kind of like this. This is kind of gratifying.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think the conspiratorial side of me thinks there was some kind of conspiracy to shove him down in the draft, and I'm not convinced that he's actually that bad.
[00:53:22] Speaker A: He's not a fifth rounder. Yeah, there.
[00:53:24] Speaker B: There is like, I can understand why people get exasperated by the Sanders, but there's plenty of people that are cocky like that.
I don't know why we.
Why we isolate out them, but anyways, I think we're both pretty much on the same page with these last set, including the Cowboys taking the Vikings.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: Hopefully it's my toxic. My toxic trait in me all season long has been to hope in these Vikings, and I almost picked them. But Cowboy. The Cowboys are playing really well offensively.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: I'm.
Yeah, they are. Although I was looking back at their schedule and when they've played good defenses, they actually don't do that well. So there's a part of me that's hoping maybe this. Maybe this Vikings defense can shut them down, especially with Ceedee Lamb out.
[00:54:13] Speaker A: They beat the Eagles, I guess, at the same. The Cowboys.
[00:54:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Cowboys. Yeah. No, they've. Yeah, but the Eagles aren't. I wouldn't consider the Eagles a good defense this year. Like, they're kind of midi.
Mediocre, I thought.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: I thought their defense was playing pretty well, at least against the Chargers, but.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: I wouldn't consider the Chargers a super good offense.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: That's fair.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: That. That was kind of a game where it's like. Yeah, it looks like a really good defensive game, but I think they. I think both the offenses are kind of mediocre and problematic. I don't know.
[00:54:43] Speaker A: I could be totally wrong.
[00:54:44] Speaker B: I have Chargers going to the Super Bowl.
[00:54:47] Speaker A: The.
[00:54:47] Speaker B: The Eagles are the super bowl champions. But I'm just like. When.
Like, for instance. Let me just look it up real quick. The Cowboys schedule. I think they lost the Browns.
Um, the Cowboys lost to the Bears 31 to 14.
Oh, they haven't played the Browns. They lost to the Broncos 44 to 24.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: Cowboys.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: The Cowboys. Yeah. And then they lost to the Lions, which I. I would consider the Eagles defense better than the Lions.
[00:55:17] Speaker A: Hey, if. If.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. They beat. They beat the Chiefs. They beat the Eagles. They beat some of those. They tied with the packers, and those are. The people consider them having good defenses. So maybe it's. I don't think the Eagles or Chiefs defense is as good as they've been in times past. The Broncos have one of the best defenses. Neither has the Vikings defense been as good as they should be. So I don't know what what defense will show up Sunday night.
[00:55:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: Which is why I have the Cowboys winning.
[00:55:49] Speaker A: Yeah. It'll be an interesting until you can.
[00:55:51] Speaker B: Show me two weeks in a row that you that the Vikings it'll be.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: An interesting Sunday night game. My Vikings trauma thinks it's going to be embarrassing because everyone everyone will be watching but that I don't think that's actually true.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: Everyone will be watching in the game. The Cowboys are one of those teams that even when they're having mid seasons they blow out the Vikings ever since the Moss game back in 98 or whatever when the Vikings blew out the Cowboys. But okay well we will see. We'll be back here. Oh I moved. I got to go. Sorry. Let's be back.
[00:56:29] Speaker A: All right.
